Go M.A.D.

When Leaders Fall: An Ambassador Response with Ron Hutchcraft

• Doug and Brad Hutchcraft • Season 5 • Episode 6

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A headline drops, a heart sinks, and trust feels thinner than yesterday. When a leader falls, the pain is real, the ripple effects spread fast, and the questions don’t stop at the church door. In this episode, our guest, Ron Hutchcraft, joins us as we talk honestly about the recent news of another Christian leader's hurtful choices. It's not a conversation centered on the sin but about how we as Christ's ambassadors should respond when news like this hits.

Whether it's a well-known Christian leader or someone in your own life, you likely know a trusted leader who has fallen. If this topic hits close to home, you’re not alone. Join us for a thoughtful, compassionate conversation that aims to steady your steps and strengthen your witness. If it helps, share it with someone who’s wrestling.


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Thank you for listening and Go M.A.D. today!

SPEAKER_01:

Hey there everyone, and I should say happy new year to all those who are tuning in to go mad with Doug and Brad. It is not go mad with Doug and Brad today. It is Go Mad with Dad and Brad. Uh I have a special guest in studio with me. Jesse is here. Jesse, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, doing right.

SPEAKER_01:

And Dad, thank you for uh sliding into the chair today because Doug and I were going to have a it's a serious conversation today about when leaders fall. This would not have been our number one topic. We would have said, let's start the new year with this. Uh, but we know this is a topic that's important. And as soon as we heard some news that we're going to talk about, not such a happy new year. No, and we knew we needed to, this is something you've got to talk about as the body of Christ. And there's things we can learn from this. So, Dad, thank you for being here today. Doug is not feeling well, but uh dad is here, and uh, we're we're grateful we can just have a conversation. We're praying, we prayed right before we came on the air that you, the listener, would be able to just be impacted by this. Would you you'd be encouraged by this episode, challenged by it? And the what we're talking about today is when leaders fall, an ambassador's response to that.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, you either maybe think of someone you know, I mean, sometimes it's a well-known Christian leader, and sometimes it's just a youth leader you knew, or a pastor you knew, or heard about, or someone who was a teacher or a Christian you looked up to in your life, and either it has affected you directly, or somewhere in a conversation about Jesus, you've had to explain to someone like you it's come up, and they're like, Yeah, well, how about these guys who, you know, they're talking about it all the time, and look, that's not even working for them. So at some level or other, we all are dealing with this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it was a reminder for me because last week there was, I was just kind of scrolling through the uh Facebook feed, and you see that post that you just hate seeing. And we're gonna be honest here today, is all too common. It really is in today's world. And it was uh the news about Philip Yancey. Some of you may know him, some of you don't, but he is a very well-known Christian author, Christian leader, speaker, all these things. I've been on lots of radio programs, podcasts, all these different things.

SPEAKER_02:

And this is a this is someone I know, you know, not uh well, we're not best friends, but we've you know been together in ministry settings at times.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you've done ministry, especially earlier on, and uh and now we we find out the news that for the last eight years he has been having an extramarital affair. He's been living in adultery, his wife did not know, and he made a very public statement about it, a uh statement that was filled with uh what seems to be repentance, um, but it has hurt a lot of people. It has left a trail of hurt. I'm I'm curious for you guys, just real quick, when you hear news like this, because whether people know Filippiancy or not, you're right, Dad. It could be someone in your community, in your church, a leader you trusted in a school setting, not just a Christian leader, but just a leader that falls and fails um in how they're living. How does that hit you guys? What are the what what's kind of some of the thoughts or emotions that kind of hit you? Jesse, what about you?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, a lot of times when I see a story pop up like that on social media or in the news, it doesn't affect me directly. And st but it reminds me of instances that have affected me directly. And so it compounds. I when uh I I hear a story every few months about a Christian leader who's fallen. I may not know much about that Christian leader. I certainly don't know them personally, but it brings me back to those moments in my life when I've experienced that personally, and it feels like it just compounds over time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I I think that's a really good way to put that compounds over time because that's what hit me this time is it was just like what I hate the feeling of another one. That that's what gets me is that compounding feeling because for me, yeah, it's that feeling of I feel sad because of the people involved. We're gonna talk about that in just a second. I want to be clear this episode today is not talking about Philip Yancey, about his wife uh directly. This is talking about when leaders fall. Yeah, so whether it's something that impacts all of us in some way or another, I find myself disappointed for sure, heartbroken, because I know let's let's go with this. I know what my sin that I've chosen to do that is not this has done to others. I know the trail of hurt it leaves when growing up, Dad. I think of just kind of the the times where I just got in a pattern of lying and and how that hurt you and mom and the the the road to healing. I had to walk through that. So I'm heartbroken because I know there's others that are hurt, and I think Jesse, you kind of nailed it. It's just sad because I'm not surprised by it anymore. I because of the compounding effect and because it's all too common, but I also refuse to accept it that this is just something that's going to keep happening because as ambassadors, we can be part of the solution and make sure that we walk through some healthy things. That's what we're going to get to today. Dad, how about for you? What just what are the thoughts of the people involved and just kind of the different levels that we're looking at?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, you let me just say that in recent months, just alone, you've had a major Christian musician that affected a lot of young lives, uh, especially uh that you know, very long, deep fall. Uh and then we've talked about one of the leading Christian authors. There have been several celebrity quote pastors of some of the largest churches in America. And uh so you know, and and I you know how you in sports you get the wind knocked out of you sometimes. That's kind of how it feels. Uh that I and you gotta get up from it. And then I immediately start to think about the the the trail of tears that is created and the number of lives and the ripple effects, and and the people who even question the validity of what Jesus represents to say, if it didn't work for him, didn't work for her, you know, what's how come I'm uh and um I I think that if we're gonna talk about this and we mostly need to talk about us, uh all of us. Because really all of us are in positions of influence. Every single person right now who's uh here with us um on this podcast, we all have influence on some people. So we're leading somebody.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the the whole uh for those who are my age, uh remember the Charles Barclay commercial, I am not a role model. It didn't pass the test with him, and it doesn't with any of us. So you're absolutely right that each one of us we're a role model and have an influence some with someone in our lives. And so this is important stuff. Let's take three people.

SPEAKER_02:

First is the the person who is the fallen leader, the in this case, um a more public figure. Yeah. Our job is not to judge them. That is totally God's department to do that. We can we should, I think, grieve what has been lost. I think we have a major responsibility here to pray for their spiritual recovery, that they that they will fully repent, that they will and and understand the consequences, the lasting consequences of having preached something that you weren't living. Yes, and and but to pray for the the families and the kids, their kids, and and then all the people that they have affected. Uh that's a lot to pray for. Now the second person involved here is all those people who are affected, okay? Deeply. And and deeply they're disillusioned, they're they're devastated, they're they feel betrayed. Uh someone you know with us right now is probably feeling that way about maybe a leader that let them down. And so it to we've got to pray that they they will separate Jesus from someone who was a representative of Jesus, because Jesus didn't let them down. A representative of Jesus did. And but we really need to think of that person who's been affected. And I would say to them, if you are one of them, I am so glad that Jesus said follow me. He did not say follow my leaders, he did not say follow my followers, he did not say follow my religion. Praise God, he said. Follow me. And Jesus, for 2,000 years, has been the same yesterday, today, and forever. The man who died for you, the man who walked out of his grave under his own power, the man who can change a life. And because uh, you know, uh I don't really know much about the UPS and FedEx driver that delivers my packages and did a lot over Christmas, I don't know much about him, nor do I care too much about what his life, because the fact is he didn't buy the what was delivered, he didn't make what was delivered, he simply delivered it. And you don't I'm not gonna give the package back because I find out something bad about the driver. I love the gift that he gave me. So the gift of what Jesus is and has given to us is intact, no matter if the guy who delivered it is or not. Now we come to us.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, let me just pause you there real quick, Dad, because the I think that's really important because uh what I want to make sure people are not hearing, and I don't think they would be, but when we say we're not judging or whatever in this situation we're not, but we're also not just dismissing this. Oh my goodness. Just like uh the individual here said himself, this was awful, it is sin, it's a disqualifying thing. He yeah, there's a long list that he went through. He understands. So we know this is serious, and we are calling sin sin in this.

SPEAKER_02:

David David spent the rest of his life paying the price for the his sin with Bathsheba.

SPEAKER_01:

And in this case, it is sexual sin, but let's be clear that that's not all we're talking about today because there's been a lot of other areas that leaders fall. Yep. And so we need to just view this as what it is that there is sin. And then what you said that the trauma, I I believe his wife said, Please pray for me in my pain and trauma that is unimaginable unless you've been through something like this. And says, but I'm staying with him. I mean that I'm keeping my commitment.

SPEAKER_02:

We feel betrayed, you know. The by so if you've looked to that person, you feel it. Imagine what she feels.

SPEAKER_01:

And and and the kids, and uh, you know, I think it is really important what you said at the end there, that in the midst of those things, you do not dismiss truth. You do not dismiss the word of God, especially in this. And so where there has been truth, there is still truth. There is still that it's because our hope is in Jesus. Now, truth has been there for two thousand years.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there you go. Okay, so that that has not changed. And I love that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So I would simply say this is not a reason for you to put any distance between you and Jesus. Yeah, it is a reason for you to get closer to Jesus. Let's talk about it. He has never betrayed anyone, and he is your safe place. And so uh Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so. Long before these people were born, yeah, Jesus has been there.

SPEAKER_01:

So let's talk about three ambassador responses. Uh mostly due center on us, because that's what we have uh well, we don't really always have control over us, but it's the one thing we can uh somewhat control is how we respond to things.

SPEAKER_02:

So I was looking out the window at all these other people. I'm looking in the mirror.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. That's uh this is where we just lost some fun. No, I'm just kidding. They're they're tuning in. I know. I'm gonna start with the first one that uh I really like uh Ed Stetcher had a fantastic article about the response, his initial response to this. His facts are still coming out. And one of the first things he led with was one of the first things that Doug, Jesse, and I talked about when we were saying we need to discuss this on the podcast, and that is examine ourselves because it really is that mirror moment. We need to spend time because uh we we should never underestimate the impact sin can have on us personally, and the fact that so many times that you talk about this all the time, dad, with us that when things like this come out that our enemy, the devil, he he roars around like a lion seeking whom he may devour, and he's going to do the most damn, he's gonna do that at the time it causes the most damage. So he lets this kind of secret sin. It's not we say secret sin, and it's not, it is secret temporarily. Yeah, if God knows it's not a secret, exactly, and it unfolds and it unfolds, and then all of a sudden the enemy is like BAM! I'm getting you right now because not only will it tear down you, will it tear down your marriage, it is going to tear down people around you. And I want to, he wants to do the most damage to the name of Jesus that he can. And that's why I love this. Lamentations 340 says, Let us test and examine our ways and return to the Lord. Test and examine. How often are we doing that? I so what would you say then? As far as they we we need to take that look at ourselves.

SPEAKER_02:

I've got a bunch of verses running around in my human concordance. Colliding verses. Um, okay, first of all, uh 1 Corinthians 10 says, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. We could sit very self-righteously back and say, Whoa, that boy, I can't believe what that guy okay, fine. Don't spend a whole lot of time looking out the window at him. Look in the mirror, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. Um and secondly, the fact is that Satan believes in a long chain strategy. I have seen too many of these over the years. Some of them have been people I have known or ministered with in certain situations, and it turns out inevitably, as as they as their life story comes out, that there was something, and often it has been sexual, not exclusively, but something back when they were a teenager. That they they kind of you know lured into a temptation, fell into it, whatever, and and they got away with it. Well, I will tell you the enemy made sure they got away with it because he he play he has a long game, he plays a long game. So the way it works is he's like, I've got him hooked, and they don't even think they're hooked. And now you're in your twenties, and then you get married, and then you have kids, and then you have influence, and then you have an audience, and and now he keeps letting out the chain going, and and the meanwhile the guy's going, I'm getting away with it. You know what? Yeah, I I'm I'm you know what? And I I do a lot of good stuff, so it's okay if I do this, the in fact I might be entitled to it, you know. And so over he keeps letting out the chain, and then at the point, and this was at the point you were making, at the point where it will do the most damage to a family, to children, to other generations, to all these people who are now looking to this person, he yanks that chain. He could have yanked it any time. He's had them chained the whole time, but he yanks them. But the thing is, if only they had dealt with it back here when they were a kid or you know, in their twenties, or whatever it was, and deal with it now because this is the easiest it's gonna ever be. This is the least costly it will ever be to deal with it. It's gonna get more, it he will pull the chain. It will get more and more expensive. He's got a plan for bringing you down and bringing lots of other people down with you. So deal with it. Now, one other verse. James 115 exposes this is a verse I'm sure the devil doesn't like any of the verses, but he really doesn't like this one. James 115 says that uh desire, notice where it starts. Desire, when it has conceived, okay, so desire is gonna have a baby. What is that baby called? Desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin. It started as a want-to, now it becomes a do. And sin when it is full grown, oh, this baby grew up. When sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. Sin always kills. First it fascinates you, then it assassinates you. And sin will kill relationships, it kills reputation, it kills self-respect, it kills self-worth, it kills your closeness to God. Sin always kills.

SPEAKER_01:

And I would add, kills closeness to your spouse, kills closeness to your your your children. I mean, it just it it the damage just goes on and on. But that's why, like we're saying, when you examine yourself and you look at these things early on, I I uh the Psalm 56, 13. I love this perspective. I looked at this, uh, for you have delivered me from death, praise God, and my feet from stumbling, so we can be free from even the stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life. Now, there was a phrase, I'm not uh smart enough to have known it before, but uh uh again, this was in uh Ed Stetcher's article, Corum Deo. And it means basically that before the Lord. You are before the face of God. Yeah. So that is how we're living our lives. We are living our lives before the face of God. And I like what he says here because of the prevailing cultural acceptability of sexual sin, and let's face it, it is widely accepted uh in today's world. We must vigilantly guard our hearts and minds. It starts with being known to God, your spouse if you're married, and to others who will hold you, hold you accountable. And we're gonna talk about that in a minute. We're known to God and we must live with the awareness that we do everything, quorum deo, before the face of God. We don't get to choose if we're doing it before the face of God. We we we feel like we can compartmentalize and that this well, this sin goes here, this sin goes here, my entertainment choices go here, my drinking goes here, whatever it is, and it's like well, wait, God is saying, I'm I'm still here. Woo-hoo! I I didn't move. I'm still I still see everything. And so for us as the body of Christ to know that I, the this individual ambassador for Christ, live in the face of God, it is sobering and it should be. It should challenge us daily.

SPEAKER_02:

Hebrews 4 says uh that all things are naked and open before the one to whom we must give account. So there is nothing you will not have to answer to God for. And in fact, Romans chapter 2, when you were talking about the secrets, Romans chapter 2 says He w He will judge all the secrets of men. So your secret is no secret, and the the day of reckoning. Is coming before a holy God. And that for me, for you, is uh should should be extremely sobering. Don't spend a lot of time looking at the the the leader you knew that fell. There are people watching you and judging Jesus by you. They can't see Jesus, but they can see you. And I I remember uh when Doug was learning to drive uh and and I do too, I was terrifying. It was a frightening time for all of us.

SPEAKER_01:

So many nightmares.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well then there was you. But anyway, um so uh and all I was I was deeply aware of this pair of of uh eyes but in the back seat, studying everything I did. I said, oh, no California roll at this stop sign, full stop. Uh not that I I mean that was the one time of my life. Well um or uh boy keep that speed limit, man, a little bit under. Uh and you were somebody's watching you. It it it it that's some accountability there, you know. And the fact is that there is no one who knows Jesus who is not being watched by somebody. And so if we uh you know, I've I've told you about the light ship Nantucket when we when mom and I went to for our anniversary to Nantucket, and I learned that there was a ship that had a lighthouse on it because it had to go out into the Ambrose Channel. They they couldn't see the lighthouses. They had to have the lighthouse out in the water. And this is uh off the coast of Nantucket. And uh I thought to myself, every ship uh that went by there actually uh charted their course and avoided shipwreck and these changing shoals by being watching with the Nantu. What if the Nantucket started to drift and drift? Every ship watching them, they would take with them. And if they drifted into the rocks, everybody goes into the rocks. And so you think about your this influence thing when Colossians 3 17 says, Whatever you do in word or deed, do it as the representative of the Lord Jesus. And so I'm representing him, and they are judging him by me, and starting with our own family. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think uh a great verse to move us to the next point here is uh Matthew 6 33. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. We're we need to seek first his righteousness. So we examine ourselves as the first step. So that moves us to our second kind of ambassador response when leaders fall. So it starts with examine ourselves, and then so we examine ourselves, we look at these things, we need to build safeguards in our lives. I know there's the Billy Graham rule about man, I'm not gonna be alone with a woman. Dad, you have carried that on, you and mom, the integrity, the standards. That's a whole nother episode uh as far as what we learned through all that growing up. But it is so true that if you build safeguards early and you put them in place and you keep them in place, it will help protect you. Temptation rarely arrives loudly. It does not, I am here and you will be tempted now. Uh, it is it starts to sneak in, it creeps in through isolation, through secrecy. Talk about cell phone accountability. Oh my goodness. Talk about accountability. Well, I mean, just that the you know that when the cell phone is a big one because you start scrolling and you're fatigued, you're you don't have safeguards in place, you don't have filters on there, you don't have you do that whole thing where you turn the phone real quick when someone walks by and it's like, oh, I wasn't looking at anything. You're deleting browser history, whatever it is. You're trying to cover your tracks. Instead, we should be have an open book. We should have an open book because we need this accountability. We so the way you build safeguards, you can have accountability with a spouse, with trusted friends. I this quote, I know I keep going back, but Stetzer says, little compromises compound into catastrophic failures. It's what you just said, Dad. Sin fascinates, then it assassinates. There's no such thing. When you're looking at accountability, never view this as this is just a text I'm sending. This is just a movie I'm watching. It doesn't matter what's on the screen. Or outside of the sexual sin, this is just one drink I'm having. This is just one thing I'm at because you know that what one thing can lead to another, lead to another, lead to another. And this isn't a conversation about, well, so I should never text uh uh another female, I should never have just a glass of wine with dinner. That's not that's legalist. We're not don't hear that in this. What we're saying is don't view it as just this or just that, because when we don't have safeguards in place, when we don't have accountability in place for these things, I want my wife to be able to pick up my phone, go to whatever I've been looking at, and not feel like I have compromised her in the process. So this accountability, um, and then along with accountability, if I can throw in there community. Because when you are part of doing a life together with others, a small group, a healthy church body, then you have what Ecclesiastes 4.12 talks about, that a cord of three strands is not quickly broken. When you have the body of Christ doing life together, you have these some of these built-in safeguards.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, uh the when you think about stuff that we watch and stuff that we listen to, um, you know, whether it's something streaming or whatever it is, uh, we think, no big deal. In fact, our guard is down during entertainment. Believe me, Satan believes in a stealth bomber approach. He wants to plant the seed when your guard is down, and when we're laughing at something or we're watching a drama or the must-see movie uh that just won some big award or whatever, everybody's watching it, everybody's talking about it. The fact is, notice that verse that we quoted earlier. Desire, when it is conceived, gives birth to sin, sin, gives birth to death. Where would you want to fight an enemy when they land on the beach or when they land in your backyard? Would you not want to stop them on the beach? You're gonna wait till they're in your backyard? It's too late, honey. You know? So if we're gonna fight, you fight it as a desire. And so when a wrong thought comes running onto the stage, you may not be able to stop it from running onto the stage of your mind. You can let it stay on stage and keep watching it and say, hmm, that's interesting. Or you can get the hook and go, look, I was gonna say, yeah. You're out of here. You're not allowed in this theater. I'm sorry. And that's why the Bible says very clearly in Proverbs 423, guard your heart. In fact, it starts out by God clearing his throat in my mind and goes, above all else, in Proverbs is loaded with stuff. He goes, if you can only remember one thing in this thing, remember this thing. Guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. If you poison the reservoir, the water source, you have damaged so many people. It's done so much damage. And the reservoir in our life that that it that's when we've got to stop it. It's too late when you're at the do-it phase. Back up, and the first time the desire to do other than God's way, whether it's handling money, whether it's sexual, whatever it is, you say, I gotta stop it here when it's small. We say, well, you know, it it's only, it's just uh, it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey man, you mentioned the the we won't go down this road right now, don't worry, folks. But you you mentioned the money thing. That is where a lot of leaders fall. Uh-huh. Because it's just a loan I'm taking out. It's just it's just a it's just a they're not going to notice that. It wow. This is the curse of Justa. Well, we that's a new title for the episode. That's just a um the uh so where does it start? Good habits. You with you everyone knows this that's listening, I think. Consistent daily time with Jesus, developing intimacy with the Lord, having a healthy body of Christ surrounding you, and and having, if you're married, having that intimacy with your spouse where there aren't secrets, where you are just being honest about things and your struggles and your victories and all of those things. So uh we've got examine yourself, we've got put safeguards in place, and the this other one is respond as Christ's ambassadors. I I this is not this one won't take that long because uh you you addressed it early on, dad, um, in the in just kind of the intro, even don't pile on. As God's ambassadors, we don't know where someone's at. We don't know what the the people are going through that are involved with whatever the sin is. We don't know uh enough to open our mouths and say, Whoa, this person, I can't believe in all these different things. We're not supposed to be the judge, jury, and executioner. What I can do is what you said before, pray for the individual. We've already covered that, and those impacted by the sin. Don't lose faith. We talked about that. Uh responding as Christ's ambassadors, don't be like, yeah, I don't let your heart. I love that phrase. Do not let your heart be troubled. There's so many times, so many instances in in the word of God where it is up to us to take the first step, don't let it, and then the other part. Yeah, so do not let that's up to us. That's up to us what we do. Stop it. Stop it. If you didn't just see him, if you're not watching on YouTube, that was important to himself. I love that. Um don't simply look the other way and accept the sin. That's not what we're saying here. When you're when we're saying don't judge it online, it doesn't mean you accept it either and just look the other way and say, well, it's just another one. No, it should always bother us. Let it grieve you. Let it grieve you. And the biggest thing here, Dad, the one that I really want to make sure we get to is responding as Christ's ambassadors, and we touched on it briefly before. Do point people to Jesus. Don't be the internet troll. Don't be the person scrolling online saying, what status should I comment on next? Be the person that is being salt and light. We're called to follow Jesus. Point people to Jesus. Dad, I'm throwing this at you because um we talked before about follow me. Jesus says follow me. If you're someone that is listening right now and they're like, what is one or two ways I can practically point people to Jesus that might bring this up? Might not even this instance, but might bring up a what about all those leaders who have fallen or whatever else? What's one way people can turn that quickly to Jesus?

SPEAKER_02:

I think what we talked about earlier, the the invitation of Jesus. Let's go back fundamentally to Jesus was follow me. And our job is to turn attention, as you're pointing out, back to him. Uh the the fact is he never never said follow my people, follow my cr if he didn't say follow Christians, uh just because someone has not f has not been following him, they've been talking about him, but that that that's what messes us all up. And I think if you bring back I I you know I'm gonna bring us back to your whole personal hope story.

SPEAKER_01:

There we go, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um if you come back to your hope story and say, Let me tell you the Jesus I know and let me tell you what can only be explained in my life because of a savior like Jesus. And the fact is that I've told you my hope story. There have been millions of hope stories over 2,000 years. This man uh who cut let's go back to the cross and say, This man who died on a cross, take him up Skull Hill, take him up Skull Hill to the foot of that cross and say, This is how much he loves you, this is how much it took to pay for your sin and mine, and then whoa, whoa, whoa, let's keep walking over to that garden tomb and let's go over to that empty tomb and let's visit there and say, This is the this this is the one we will stand before someday. And well the fact is Including all those who have sinned and all those who have hurt others that every sin in fact the Bible says in Genesis, shall not the judge of all the earth do right. He'll get it all right one day. We all are in need of a savior, and none of these human representatives can be the savior. Uh the one who delivers the package is not are not is not the package. Remember that. And let's remember that as followers of Christ, that who are we following? We tend to get kind of uh, you know, very enamored with uh with our that great teacher or that great radio. I'm sorry, but our our our allegiance is is is messed up there. That's fine. Listen to the Jesus they're talking about. Paul said, I know you guys in Berea are listening to what I'm teaching, but check it out. You should check out every teacher and see if I'm saying what Jesus said. He said, even if it's my teaching, you know, make just it's all about Jesus. Paul said, when I was among you, here's all I wanted to know. He was a great theologian, greatest of all time. He said, Jesus Christ and him crucified, it's Jesus and his cross. My friend, my brother and sister, please bring them back to Jesus. This is an opportunity to actually, and that sounds like it's strange, it's an opportunity not to be on the defensive. I don't have to defend uh the the failures of Christians. I only have to explain the perfection and wonder of Christ.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's the only thing I would add to that, uh Dad. It's a great response. I think just when someone says, but what about so-and-so? Try saying this. You're right. You're right. That person did do that. That person is wrong, whether it is a politician you're following or a Christian leader or a school leader, whoever it is, if you know someone, if it's wrong, don't pretend you have to defend the person. No, call out what is sin, yep, and then point to Jesus quickly. Don't linger on the sin, but if you just are defensive about an individual, people will hear less of what you have to say about Jesus. Get to Jesus. And folks, there are so many things that we go through when a leader falls. We pray that this episode today has been an encouragement to you to look at yourselves, to stick to Jesus, to bring the hope of Jesus. We are his ambassadors. And so, what I would say is uh from all of us here, until the next time, we are praying that you will go mad.